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Traveller-digest     Monday, November 22 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1380<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: OFF TOPIC (OT): Taikonauts!<BR>
Re: Ideological Warfare<BR>
Re: Mass Destruction<BR>
Re: Mass Destruction<BR>
Gas Giants in close orbits<BR>
Re: Two things....<BR>
Superpowers (was Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery)<BR>
Re: Galactic<BR>
Re: Mass Destruction<BR>
Re: MONGO NATIONAL GUARD FLEES IN TERROR!!<BR>
Re: Tourism in the Marches<BR>
Re: Slavery was Re: Ideological Warfare<BR>
Re: Ortillery VS Gropos Long(was Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:48:24 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC (OT): Taikonauts!<BR>
<BR>
On 22 Nov 99, at 16:55, dennis.f.belanger@bellatlanti wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Hey Josh,<BR>
> <BR>
>      Better dead than Red!<BR>
> <BR>
>      The only " good will" I want to see in space exploration is the<BR>
>      courtesy we<BR>
> might extend to other nations for the use of OUR tech, OUR ships and OUR<BR>
> personelle.<BR>
<BR>
Considering how much is Russian (once Soviet) tech, Russian 'ships', <BR>
Russian personnel and most definitely Russian experience and expertise <BR>
I'd be a little more courteous myself.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:58:59 -0600<BR>
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortelnetworks.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ideological Warfare<BR>
<BR>
Who says Imperial culture is Western?<BR>
<BR>
If the archaeologists/anthropologists/whatevers are right,<BR>
human culture didn't put any value on the human at all<BR>
until around 2000 BC (with, of all people, Abraham).<BR>
It was with certain Semitic peoples in Mesopotamia that<BR>
developed the idea that the person was worth something;<BR>
from there we have the birth of "Western" civilization.  The<BR>
older ways hung around as well, and gave rise to Eastern<BR>
thought, though there is a mix of East and West in each<BR>
of us now due to the cross-pollination of ideas over time.<BR>
<BR>
The old ideology commanded us to accept the inevitable,<BR>
dance with the wheel of life... the world of the ascetic or<BR>
the fatalist.  The Western ideology is a bit more intrusive,<BR>
I think, with the idea that each person is an individual, with<BR>
value, and that struggle is meaningful, time is linear, etc etc.<BR>
<BR>
On all human empires there will be swaths of competing<BR>
ideology, over history, work, wealth, rights, etc.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU there are ideologies that come with each culture.<BR>
Cultural regions IMTU follow these rules of thumb:<BR>
<BR>
Interior: Cultures are gathered in subsector- and sector-<BR>
wide regions (see the MegaTraveller books).  Some allowances<BR>
and prohibitions are valid for the entire region.  Expect local<BR>
corporate offices to be staffed significantly by locals, who<BR>
follow their culture.  Also expect a vocal minority of<BR>
protesters to oppose the seemingly arbitrary and unfair<BR>
cultural biases inherent in the culture.  Activist will call for<BR>
change.  Money will exchange hands, and political fortunes<BR>
will be won and lost.  People will die, and will either be<BR>
hailed as heroes or conveniently forgotten.<BR>
<BR>
Interior cultural borders: On the borders of two cultural regions,<BR>
ideology will be an interesting, sometimes conflicting blend of the<BR>
cultures.  Expect there to be sporadic violence and terrorism.<BR>
Don't expect there to be full-blown war, because of the Imperial<BR>
Marines.  However, you can bet yer boots that some corporations<BR>
have "tradewars" more for cultural reasons than economic ones.<BR>
People will die, and will either further polarize the factions at<BR>
each others' throats or will be forgotten.<BR>
<BR>
Frontier worlds on the X-boat route: Expect these cultures to be<BR>
related to other cultures which were grafted to the boondocks<BR>
from the interior.   An important world will spread its culture<BR>
to neighboring worlds, and a cluster of important worlds will<BR>
probably have the same culture... or a few antagonistic ones.<BR>
<BR>
Frontier worlds off the X-boat route: Cultures will vary wildly from<BR>
planet to planet, and even continent to continent.  Expect wealthy<BR>
worlds to have influence over their neighbors.  However, the frontier is<BR>
where you'll find all the fringe groups, off the X-boat routes.<BR>
<BR>
- -Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:55:30 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Mass Destruction<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>       Interesting idea, but I wonder about the cost of a Death<BR>
>>       Star.<BR>
<BR>
> According to published Star Wars sources its a sphere about 120 km in<BR>
> diameter, thus it has a displacement of 6.463 x 10^14 dtons.<BR>
<BR>
Nope. Doesn't match the photos. For that size, and the size of the<BR>
central trench, relative to the diameter of the DS, when we get to the<BR>
shot where the trench almost fills the screen, the hangar bay wouldn't<BR>
be *visible*. <BR>
<BR>
> The second DS is supposed to be larger.<BR>
><BR>
> The cost of the frame alone would be ... significant.<BR>
<BR>
And you've got the problem of this thing having a significant gravity<BR>
field. Which means that the stresses on the frame are going to be unreal.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:50:45 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Mass Destruction<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Kyle Schuant writes:<BR>
>>Who remembers Moff Tarken in Star Wars? He was never ordered<BR>
>>to go and waste Alderaan.... who here thinks that if the Death<BR>
>>Star had survived the Emperor would have cashiered and executed<BR>
>>Tarken? I think he just got carried away with his big new toy.<BR>
>>Alderaan's annual taxes might've paid for a whole new Death<BR>
>>Star.<BR>
><BR>
>         Interesting idea, but I wonder about the cost of a Death<BR>
>         Star. It is described as the size of a "small moon," and<BR>
>         certainly looks like one from close up. Anyone have a<BR>
>         guestimate of its tonnage? I cannot imagine anything<BR>
>         just 1 km in diameter being refered to as a "small moon,"<BR>
>         perhaps 10 km would be a minimum. This is about 3.88x10^10<BR>
>         dtons. It might require more than a few planets worth of<BR>
>         annual taxes.<BR>
<BR>
My figures say 20 miles diameter, tops.<BR>
Based on using freeze frame on the video, and measuring the relative<BR>
size of:<BR>
<BR>
        diameter of Death Star:width of central trench<BR>
       width of central trench:heighth of hangar bay entrance<BR>
heighth of hangar bay entrance:thickness of Millenium Falcon<BR>
<BR>
>>What are the possibilities for a Death Star type weapon in<BR>
>>Traveller? Maybe a humungous Meson Gun?<BR>
><BR>
>         That would be the best of the canon weapons systems, IMHO.<BR>
>         Of course, some sort of grav device might be effective at<BR>
>         allowing the planet to blow itself appart. In any event,<BR>
>         it would have to be BIG.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, try sitting down and figuring the output for a PAW<BR>
20 miles long. Actually, given what we see in the film, make that *six*<BR>
of them.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:02:52 -0800<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Gas Giants in close orbits<BR>
<BR>
British astronomers may have detected light [reflected] from a planet <BR>
orbiting another star [Tau Bootes, 50 ly away]. <BR>
<BR>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_531000/531486.stm<BR>
<BR>
Cue the "edit Solomani Rim to match reality" thread...<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell Bornschlegel<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:03:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Two things....<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> 1) thanks for the responses on the Ine Givar...unfortunately I don't<BR>
> posses a credit card and sending a cheque in US dollars is problematic<BR>
> for us Brits, but the archive article gave me enough background to work<BR>
> on.  Thanks again - excellent article.<BR>
<BR>
Check with the Post Office and various banks. Odds are that you can buy<BR>
a Money Order in US funds without *too* much trouble.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:12:21 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Superpowers (was Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery)<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery<BR>
>>Well, that's great. Last I noticed, within the<BR>
>> Imperium there are no feuding superpowers. There <BR>
>>can be no Cold War style situation in the Third<BR>
>>Imperium... well, there can be, but at that point <BR>
>>you begin to getfurther and further away from the <BR>
>>canon view of the Imperium.<BR>
><BR>
>You don't consider the Zho / Imperium relationship<BR>
>that of feuding superpowers? It fits the classic <BR>
>example, down to the support of the conflict between <BR>
>the Darrians and the Sword Worlds as sponsored <BR>
>governments.<BR>
<BR>
A superpower in contemporary times means a nation that<BR>
can effectively exert its will anywhere in the world<BR>
in a very short time, without any other power's<BR>
cooperation.  The United States is presently the only<BR>
nation with that capability.<BR>
<BR>
In the Far Future, a superpower would have to able to<BR>
exert its will anywhere in known space in a very short<BR>
time, without any other power's cooperation.  Given<BR>
distances and travel capabilities, no power can be a<BR>
true superpower.  <BR>
<BR>
Local regions may experience two or more great powers<BR>
as pseudo-superpowers, who have to be considered in<BR>
taking any action, but that still doesn't rise to the<BR>
level of one-world superpower capability.  <BR>
<BR>
Another key difference between the recent past and the<BR>
Far Future is that no one in the Far Future has a real<BR>
and immediate ability to destroy all life everywhere. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:26:34 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Galactic<BR>
<BR>
jghamrick@or.freei.net wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I've just searched a zillion Traveller sights to no avail. Can anyone<BR>
> direct me to a place where I can download GALACTIC?<BR>
> <BR>
> Thanks<BR>
<BR>
Try:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Starship/8023/<BR>
<BR>
That site is maintained by Galactic 2.4's author.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 00:45:00 +0000 (GMT)<BR>
From: Michel R Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Mass Destruction<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >>What are the possibilities for a Death Star type weapon in<BR>
> >>Traveller? Maybe a humungous Meson Gun?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >         That would be the best of the canon weapons systems, IMHO.<BR>
> >         Of course, some sort of grav device might be effective at<BR>
> >         allowing the planet to blow itself appart. In any event,<BR>
> >         it would have to be BIG.<BR>
> <BR>
> On the other hand, try sitting down and figuring the output for a PAW<BR>
> 20 miles long. Actually, given what we see in the film, make that *six*<BR>
> of them.<BR>
> <BR>
> -- <BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
<BR>
	Hi, Leonard!  Given that it is a coliding beam weapon, I'd say its<BR>
monster-sized meson gun that uses multiple tunnels to synthesize a *much*<BR>
bigger weapon...  <BR>
<BR>
	--Michel<BR>
<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
		Michel R. Vaillancourt<BR>
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
<BR>
	   Dad, Hubby, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....<BR>
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:<BR>
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"<BR>
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:<BR>
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:55:52 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: MONGO NATIONAL GUARD FLEES IN TERROR!!<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
<BR>
> Glenn:<BR>
>IS this an actual campaign? If so, when does Flash <BR>
>Gordon, Dale Arden and Dr. Zarkov show up? :) :)-<BR>
- -->Josh<BR>
<BR>
Well, it's an actual game of Fifth Frontier War (a map<BR>
and counters game), but not a Traveller role-playing<BR>
campaign.  <BR>
<BR>
For the answers to your questions ... watch this<BR>
space.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:39:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Tourism in the Marches<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Steal^H^H^H^H^Hborrow an idea from David Weber. There's a local<BR>
>> bacterium, probably entire *familes*(in the taxonomic sense) of them,<BR>
>> that just *loves* chlorophyll.<BR>
><BR>
> Hmmm. Good idea, but it doesn't go far enough I think...<BR>
><BR>
>> Luckily these bugs are tied to the local ecology well enough that they<BR>
>> don't survive well off world.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, this keeps people from importing plant for agricultural purposes,<BR>
> but if you accept the basic premise that it's a true garden world, then<BR>
> that's probably not a big deal. Assuming Whanga has the same level of<BR>
> biodiversity as Earth, which is reasonable, then there's no shortage of<BR>
> possible plants to cultivate agriculturally. <BR>
><BR>
> There really isn't an issue of Whanga's plant life being inedible by <BR>
> humans, as the Vilani and several dozen other minor human species seem to <BR>
> have<BR>
> made out ok by living off of a biosphere that, at first glance, would seem<BR>
> incompatible. If there's something that grows on Whanga that looks like a<BR>
> potato and contains a lot of something resembling starch, then chances are it<BR>
> can be shugili(sp?)-ized into something edible.<BR>
<BR>
But at what cost? And what does the result taste like? <BR>
<BR>
There comes a point where importing is simpler.<BR>
<BR>
> My only open question is that I wonder if the agricultural worlds of<BR>
> the Imperium notice the loss of biomass over time? I mean, if you have<BR>
> "Alberta-zon", the planet covered with wheat (and right-wing politicians)<BR>
> that's perpetually being shipped out to feed the legions or whatever, do they<BR>
> start to suffer after a few centuries? Do they notice the loss of<BR>
> nutrients, minerals, etc?<BR>
<BR>
They would eventually. But you can slow it down a bit by requiring<BR>
visiting ships to dump their "sludge" tanks. You can do even better if<BR>
you have the ships hauling grain one way haul "sludge" the other way.<BR>
Hi-pop planets are going to have an *awfully* large amount of the stuff<BR>
to treat. Enough that doing *minimal* treatment and loading it into the<BR>
food ships for the return run may make sense.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:05:12 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery was Re: Ideological Warfare<BR>
<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> Are their any cultures in your TU that practice slavery?  Do you believe<BR>
> that slavery is economically unworkable after a culture reaches a certain<BR>
> TL?  I am curious as to how people have dealt with this issue.  I am sure<BR>
> that there's no slavery in the 3I, but what about other places?  Traveller<BR>
> is really a space opera, and slavery is prevalent in lots of those.<BR>
> <BR>
Dr. Jerry Pournelle, in _King David's Spaceship_, points out that the<BR>
horse collar eventually led to the end of human slavery as a routine<BR>
institution.  [Note:  Figures used are from _KDS_.]  Before the horse<BR>
collar was invented, a horse could do the work of five human slaves,<BR>
because the harnesses in use at the time would strangle the horse if you<BR>
had it pull too much.  Since a horse also eats about as much as five<BR>
human slaves, human slave labor is reasonably attractive.  However, once<BR>
the horse collar was invented, a horse could do the work of _ten_ human<BR>
slaves, while still eating as much as five human slaves.  Given the<BR>
obvious economic benefit of using horses for heavy work (twice as much<BR>
work per unit of food), slavery becomes more rare, and is generally<BR>
imposed on peoples thought of as inferior.  Once the Industrial<BR>
Revolution began, slavery became even less viable economically, as<BR>
machines began to replace human labor in many fields.<BR>
<BR>
Thus, S.M. Stirling's Domination of the Draka notwithstanding, I would<BR>
not expect to see chattel slavery in a semi-rational technological<BR>
civilization.  <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 19:02:26 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Ortillery VS Gropos Long(was Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery)<BR>
<BR>
From: DaveShayne <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I was responding to the specific scenario of a worlds leaders deliberately<BR>
>sabotaging their own infrastructure not making a general point. If say<BR>
>some political leader were to order you to destroy your source of income<BR>
>in order to annoy some larger political body would you? Would your<BR>
neighbor?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
It's happened, and it will most likely happen again (and again). It seems<BR>
like you're assuming a modern American apathetic dynamic. There are<BR>
astonishing examples in World War II, for example.<BR>
<BR>
Ask me that later if I'm particularly surly with regard to the American<BR>
government, it'll help if I am part of a separatist movement.<BR>
<BR>
>>Still, there are some worlds which require technological assistance to<BR>
keep<BR>
>>their population alive. Of course, the Imperium wouldn't need to drop big<BR>
>>rocks on them to win them over.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>If they're fanatics who'd rather die than accept Impie rule they would.<BR>
>But such people are rare in the extreme.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I don't think that they're as rare as you think. Vietnam (particularly apt,<BR>
actually), Afghanistan... I can be here all day composing a list, and that<BR>
would only focus on those after 1900 or so.<BR>
<BR>
>True there are Welsh seperatists. And a lot more Welsh who are more or<BR>
>less happy being british. Then there are the Quebec seperatists. And twice<BR>
>in a row they've voted down independence.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I never said that *every* world would want to leave the Imperium, nor that<BR>
every world that wants to leave will be commited. However, I think that it<BR>
would be an eventuality that would happen, and would happen a number of<BR>
times within the Imperium. After all, there are many, many worlds within the<BR>
Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
Remember, the Imperium looks the other way with regard to the plight of<BR>
worlds ruled by brutal regimes every day. It's going to be obvious to<BR>
somebody that the Imperium *could* do something and chooses not to as long<BR>
as the taxes are coming in. Give such a scenario, I don't know, one or two<BR>
or six centuries and you're going to have people who have more than just a<BR>
little dislike for the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
Toss in the submerged cultural regions, which were at one time multi-world<BR>
polities with long histories and (presumably) proud traditions, and which<BR>
were brought into the Imperium by force.<BR>
<BR>
>There are other examples, my point being that in any reasonably large<BR>
>population you will be able to find a number of quislings and a lot of<BR>
>people who won't care who is in charge as long as they have bread<BR>
>on the table and a reasonable expectation of having more of the same in<BR>
>the future.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
If what you're saying is true, the Japanese could never have isolated<BR>
themselves to the extent that they did. Incidentally, that isolation ended<BR>
when the American Navy threatened to come back in a year and start<BR>
bombarding the country.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, after the West made their way to Asia and started trying to pawn<BR>
off their shiny baubles the Asians frequently pulled inward and tried to<BR>
isolate themselves. Some were successful, some were not.<BR>
<BR>
>>"In all other situations..." watch those generalizations, sir! ;)<BR>
><BR>
>Errata --- Please insert the word "most" in between the words "in" and<BR>
"all"<BR>
>in the sentence in question.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
It is an important distinction to make. After all, you're saying that unless<BR>
you have less than 999 people (a pop code of 2, if I recall correctly)<BR>
you're not going to be able to get any agreement. Not all worlds are<BR>
canonically participatory democracies, and we're talking about all sorts of<BR>
different cultures with differing degrees of collective self-consciousness.<BR>
<BR>
>>neccesarily descriptive) but even so, what happens when you're confronted<BR>
>>with a charismatic, nationalistic dictator, or ideology, or both?<BR>
><BR>
>Some people become adherents of the said dictator/ideology many don't.<BR>
>The trick is to kill the adherents whilst leaving as untouched as posible<BR>
>those who aren't.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
If you'll pardon my saying so, that's an awfully shallow view. Charismatic<BR>
dictators are not mesmers. They do not suddenly shift populations with their<BR>
stunning rhetoric. They are charismatic because they are a product of the<BR>
culture that they are making their appeals to. Don't get me wrong, I'm not<BR>
saying that their actual *presence* doesn't matter. I'm just saying that it<BR>
goes far deeper than that. Ideologies, on the other hand, are not simply<BR>
born overnight.<BR>
<BR>
They accrete and develop over the course of long decades, even centuries.<BR>
Let's keep going with the Nazi example. It's a good one. You kill the<BR>
adherents. How do you find the adherents? There were hundreds of thousands<BR>
of German citizens who had no qualms about going out and killing Jews. There<BR>
were members of police and para-military groups who sent back pictures of<BR>
dead Jewish Poles - women and children and old folks - in the streets to<BR>
their wives and children back home.<BR>
<BR>
There have been anthropological and sociological studies done which seem to<BR>
strongly point the finger not at any one leader, nor any one group of people<BR>
(indeed, those who participated in the really nasty and atrocious acts were<BR>
a decent cross section of the German populace), nor any general moral<BR>
breakdown on the part of the German people it was the result of a long<BR>
process and includes philosophy, religious development, folklore, political<BR>
movements, outside influences, and many, many other factors.<BR>
<BR>
In other words, how do you figure out who adheres to an ideology and who<BR>
doesn't?<BR>
<BR>
>>Least damaging to whom? The planet or the Imperium?<BR>
><BR>
>Well if the goal is integration of the planet into the imperium I'm<BR>
thinking<BR>
>that<BR>
>these are one and the same.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Not at all. After all, rocks are cheap, battle-dress, grav tanks and trained<BR>
operators are not.<BR>
<BR>
>>If it's the former, dropping rocks is effectively the same as dropping<BR>
>>ground troops. You're still going to lose civilians, and it's more than<BR>
>>likely that you're going to decimate industrial centers. If it's the<BR>
>latter,<BR>
>>dropping rocks is a hell of alot cheaper and less time consuming than<BR>
>>dropping marines in battle dress.<BR>
><BR>
>If you don't mind who or what you hit you can just drop rocks.<BR>
>If the historical record on strategic bombing can be used as<BR>
>an analogy for the rock dropping you propose then it won't<BR>
>be as effective as MIB and will result in a good many more<BR>
>civilian deaths.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
So what you're saying is that nailing, say, a city of 10,000, at no danger<BR>
to the Imperium, is going to be different from entering into a ground war<BR>
that could have many, many more casualties and could cost the Imperium a<BR>
hell of a lot more?<BR>
<BR>
>Maybe not Hitler but how about the Krupps? Or the general staff?<BR>
>Or even confronting Hitler in 36 or 37 when the wermacht was still<BR>
>A small and mostly obsolete force instead of the much larger army<BR>
>of 39.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Fair enough, but do you honestly think that bribing Hitler, or Lenin, or<BR>
Castro would have succeeded? Do you think that Hitler would have been<BR>
interested in money?<BR>
<BR>
Besides, we don't need to speculate. There were many attempts to get Japan<BR>
to open up to trade after they closed themselves off. When China tried to<BR>
close itself off from imperialist Britain, they probably would have<BR>
succeeded. The only problem was that Britain resorted to nasty tricks in<BR>
order to keep up the trade, tricks that were, at least in my estimation, at<BR>
least as bad as nailing a population center or two.<BR>
<BR>
>On the subject of Castro. I was going to go there but I won't.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
It's a good idea not to, considering the fact that he's still in power. ;)<BR>
<BR>
>>Just out of curiosity, how did we end up on the Marxist "peasant revolt"<BR>
>>line? It doesn't have to be "peasants" or "proles" who are doing the bulk<BR>
>of<BR>
>>the revolting at all. In fact, in cases like the American of French<BR>
>>Revolutions the peasants weren't even the real driving force behind the<BR>
>>rebellion.<BR>
><BR>
>Either the planetary leaders or the planets population intend to leave the<BR>
>Imperium. If the leaders don't or if the leaders can be co-opted then<BR>
>that leaves everybody else. I'm just trying to remind you that planets<BR>
>aren't political monoliths. Just because a group of plotters wants to<BR>
>seperate from the benevelent 3I doesn't make that the will of the<BR>
>populace. And just because the working stiffs want to suceede doesn't<BR>
>necesarily imply that the holders of political power will go along.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well, no, it doesn't have to be either the peasants or the leaders. It can<BR>
be both, and the reasons can be deeply rooted in the culture of the people<BR>
on the world.<BR>
<BR>
>>Actually, religious disputes, historically, have been among the least<BR>
>>"dirty" wars, depending on how you look at it. This may simply be an<BR>
>>accident of history, since the same force that allowed mankind to make<BR>
>>really impressive weapons also happened to marginalize those religious<BR>
>>institutions that would be able to make war to a great degree.<BR>
><BR>
>I was thinking dirty in the sense of less likely to obey "civilized rules<BR>
of<BR>
>war"<BR>
>rather than more deadly per se.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Fair enough, although I'm not sure that anybody *really* follows "civilized<BR>
rules of war" these days. Folks tend to avoid the nukes, chem and bio<BR>
weapons simply because they know that the situation will most likely<BR>
escalate to the point that they'd be wiped off the face of the earth.<BR>
<BR>
>Allow me to expand your reasoning here. Lets suppose that you drop your<BR>
>carefully limited rocks to enforce your will. Sure this works for a while<BR>
>untill<BR>
>someone says "Well they always stop short of causing real damage we can<BR>
>call their bluff."<BR>
<BR>
Yep. No doubt.<BR>
<BR>
>And sooner or later it escalates to needing to slag<BR>
>planets to<BR>
>prove you are willing to slag planets.<BR>
<BR>
Nope, the Imperium only needs to do it a couple of times to prove that<BR>
they're willing.<BR>
<BR>
>and eventually you can't keep the<BR>
>fiction<BR>
>of a benevellent Imperium going and lots of worlds and probably quite a few<BR>
>fleets rebel and the next thing you know....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I didn't know that there was a fiction of a benevolent Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
>The war wasn't over untill the gropos had occupied germany. The fire<BR>
bombing<BR>
>of Dresden did'nt materially hasten the occupation. Ergo the firebombing<BR>
was<BR>
>"more or less irrellevant...."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>Again at that point it was obvious that the Japanese had lost the war.<BR>
>The question was at that point what concessions could they get from<BR>
>the US. The bomb just convinced Hirohito that all of his people would die.<BR>
>He ordered the unconditional surrender (which wasn't quite unconditional<BR>
>they got to keep their emperor). If this still supports your thesis (in<BR>
your<BR>
>opinion) well so be it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Um... Okay, sure. In one case the war wasn't over until the infantry<BR>
occupied the country, in the other the war was over before the infantry<BR>
occupied the country. You'll have to excuse me when I say it sounds like<BR>
you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.<BR>
<BR>
>I'm sorry but the infrastructures of both countries were destroyed by<BR>
>strategic<BR>
>bombing (mostly) which is closer in spirit to your rocks than to my MIB's.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Actually, no. It's not closer in spirit to what I'm talking about. I'm not<BR>
talking about strategic bombing in any way, shape or form. I'm talking about<BR>
the use of terror weapons. Two entirely different things.<BR>
<BR>
What do you think happens when you let loose the battle-dress marines and<BR>
the grav tanks? Do you think the infrastructure of the country remains<BR>
intact? Do you think that the Imperium will avoid nailing strategic targets?<BR>
<BR>
So, no. Strategic bombing is not what I'm talking about here, not in any<BR>
way, shape or form.<BR>
<BR>
>Also. The point I was trying to make is that we forestalled another war by<BR>
>A) Physically occupying both countries with large forces.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I'm fine with the occapation angle, actually, considering the fact that<BR>
after the war was over the job of the infantry was no longer taking ground.<BR>
Would you consider what the Americans did in Japan after their surrendered<BR>
was "fighting a land war"? Same with Germany. Same with Kosovo right now.<BR>
<BR>
It's something of a moot point anyway, because... (scroll down)<BR>
<BR>
>B) Rebuilding the destruction we had caused in our attempt to drive them to<BR>
>their knees.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
...the difference with rock dropping is that you don't *really* damage the<BR>
infrastructure all that much. After all, you nail a city and the civilian,<BR>
industrial and military infrastructure of that city is *gone*. Poof. Not<BR>
there to rebuild in the first place.<BR>
<BR>
Compare that to the effects of a ground war, in which you're going to have<BR>
to destroy the enemy's industrial capacity if you want them to stop<BR>
fighting.<BR>
<BR>
>The cost of these paliatives would far outweigh any monitary savings for<BR>
>orbital bombardment and the cost of not occupying/rebuilding would be<BR>
>the need to go back and do it twenty years later with the added bonus<BR>
>that more of your enemy will be convinced that you are evil.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
People forgive and forget pretty quickly. Even ground wars can end with the<BR>
same kind of feelings that you're talking about. Take Germany's position at<BR>
the end of World War I, for example.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1380<BR>
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